Der USA Bären-Thread
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@biomüll
Schön, dass du auch mal wieder postest. ICh wollte dir schon ne BM schreiben, ob es dich noch gibt...
Was Gold betrifft bin z.B. ich so skeptisch, weil es sich um einen Rohstoff handelt. Rohstoffpreise müssen in einer Rezession fallen, weil die Nachfrage sinkt. Nun ist Gold ein Sonderfall, weil den Nimbus der Kriserwährung anhaftig. Aber mE besitzt das nur in echten Krisen Gültigkeit, also Krieg, Hyperinflation usw. Zudem sitzen die Zentralbanken auf großen Reserven und sind auch gewillt, diese aufzulösen. Ich würde mich mal fragen, warum.
Zur Zeit steckt eine Menge spekulatives Geld in Gold, ist also nicht nachhaltig investiert. ME wird es nicht mehr lange dauern bis auch dort eine Blase platzt.
Mein Fazit: Gold kann verboten werden, ist also auch kein sicherer Schutz gegen Inflation.
(1) Das gilt sicher fuer USA eher als fuer Europa. In USA laesst sich schon mal leicht was verbieten, das hat man waehrend der Prohibition gesehen und kann man heutzutage an allerlei unsinnigen Verboten und Gesetzen erkennen, die die Leute ueber sich ergehen lassen. In Europa sind die Leute sensibler, was solche Verbotsmassnahmen betrifft, deshalb kann ich mir das dort eigentlich nicht vorstellen. Klar gibt es gerade in D auch viele Vorschriften und Gesetze, aber ich glaube wirklich, dass ein Goldverbot in D auf ganz massive Ablehnung stossen wuerde, staerker als in USA.
(2) Was ist mit Silber? Dem steht die breite Masse genauso skeptisch gegenueber wie Gold, obwohl der Besitz von Silber noch nie verboten wurde.
Ich muss biomuell beipflichten. Ich kann nicht verstehen, wie im gegenwaertigen Umfeld Gold und Silber immer noch nicht als die sicheren Haefen angesehen werden, die sie sind. Aber nur Geduld, das kommt noch. Naechstes Jahr wird sehr, sehr kritisch werden. Lest mal diesen Artikel hier:
http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/willie/2007/1226.html
Nochmal zu Gold: Dessen Wert ergibt sich aus dem Preis den ein anderer zu zahlen bereit ist, was aber nur funktioniert wenn der auch an Gold glaubt. Gold arbeitet nicht und Gold zahlt keine Dividende, es liegt nur rum. Sobald Gold also beginnt zu fallen wird sich dieser Fall beschleunigen, weil die Spekulanten raus müssen da Gold keine Gelddruckmaschine wie eine gut laufende Firma ist die sich irgendwann wieder erholt.
Weil ich sicher bin, dass der FED früher oder später der Turnaround gelingen wird (und wenn erst 2009), spekuliere ich jetzt lieber short in Aktien als long in Gold.
Bezogen auf die Kaufkraft und inflationbereinigt entspräche der heutige Goldpreis übrigens weniger als 300 USD von 1980 - "teuer" mag Gold angesichts der nominellen Hochstände zwar aktuell erscheinen - REAL teuer ist Gold aktuell aber (noch lange) nicht.
Das kann man als Gold-Bär freilich auch genau anders rum auslegen. Wer 1980 zu damaligen 800 Dollar in Gold eingestiegen ist, musste 27 - zinsfreie - Jahre warten, um auch nur seinen Einstandskurs wiederzubekommen. Durch die Inflation haben die 800 Dollar von 1980 heute aber nur noch eine Kaufkraft von 300 Dollar. Man hat also 500 Dollar an Kaufkraft verloren. Dies zeigt, dass Gold langfristig zu den am miesesten performenden Anlageklassen überhaupt zählt. Wer freilich in den letzten Jahren auf den fahrenden Goldzug aufgesprungen ist, hat jetzt schöne Gewinne. Aber wie lange noch? Man muss sich der Zyklik dieser Bewegung bewusst sein. Es fällt schon auf, das Notenbanken in aller Herren Länder zurzeit massig Gold verkaufen. Sollte es sich bei diesen Herren womöglich um geschickte Market-Timer handeln?
Ich möchte nicht ausschließen, dass Gold noch bis 900 Dollar steigt (siehe Metros Posting von timepatternanalysis, das ich sehr gut analysiert finde) - und parallel dazu EUR/USD nochmal an der 1,50 kratzt. Doch für die Folgezeit sieht es recht mau aus. Timepattern- analysis rechnet mit einem erneuten Goldpreisverfall wie ab 1980 und - zu Recht - mit einem Wiedererstarken des Dollars, wobei sogar die sehr optimistische Parität (1 Dollar = 1 Euro) als Kursziel genannt wird.
Nachfrage @AL:
Im timepattern-Artikel steht: "Je stärker sich die rezessiven Tendenzen der amerikanischen (und der Welt-)Wirtschaft manifestieren, je mehr dürfte sich der Dollar gegen Euro befestigen. " Den Satz verstehe ich nicht. Hast du eine Erklärung?
http://www.ftd.de/politik/...Ausblick%20So%20Jahr/297184.html?p=15#a1
Shipping Rates Falling
By Tony Crescenzi
Street.com
12/27/2007 3:51 PM EST
In what may be a signal toward lower commodity prices, which, in fact, have been seen of late in the industrial sector, the Baltic Dry Shipping Index has fallen to a three-month low, closing Wednesday at 9143, well below the all-time high of 11,039 reached on Nov. 13.
Coincident with this, major industrial commodity price indices have been falling. For example, the Journal of Commerce index has fallen about 5% since its most recent peak in early November. A similar decline has been posted in the CRB/Reuters Raw Industrial Index.
These declines reinforce the idea that there are limitations on the "decoupling" theory, the theory that the rest of the world will continue to chug along even as U.S. economic growth slows. The theory has worked this year, but the more that risks to the U.S. economy grow, the weaker the theory holds up, which is something I would continue to expect.
In other words, if the U.S. continues to move toward recession, expect a correction in commodity prices and a sharp impact on countries exporting commodities.
Auch die FTD prognostiziert Preisrückgänge bei Rohstoffen und Öl:
Fällt der Ölpreis unter 80 Dollar pro Barrel?
Ja. Finanzinvestoren haben mit Wetten die Notierungen bis auf knapp 100 $ getrieben. Höchste Zeit, dass das sich umkehrt. Die Kreditkrise wird die Nachfrage dämpfen, die Opec, allen voran Angola und der Irak, wird das Angebot ausweiten. Und wenn das Wetter keine Kapriolen schlägt, wird es eng 2008 für die Ölbullen. Tobias Bayer
Quelle: http://www.ftd.de/politik/...Ausblick%20So%20Jahr/297184.html?p=16#a1
Too Early to Look For a Bottom
December 27, 2007
As we watched the anchors on bubble TV desperately trying to find a ray of sunshine in the dismal financial and economic situation it seemed as if almost every strategist, portfolio manager and analyst was asked whether they thought the financial stocks were bottoming and whether they were now buying them. It seems to us that this is the wrong question.
The key question should be: With the S&P 500 down only 6.3% from its all-time peak, the housing and credit crisis now spreading to the rest of the economy and corporate earnings starting to decline, when is the market going to realize the full extent of the problem? Markets seldom bottom when everyone is looking for one. That only tends to keep stocks up since few want to sell if they think a bottom is close. Stocks only bottom when the vast majority has already thrown in the towel and given up the idea that the market will go up anytime soon. That is hardly the case at the present time. The latest Investors’ Intelligence survey indicates that bulls on the market outnumber bears by a margin of 2.4-to-1, hardly the sentiment seen at previous market bottoms where bears have typically outnumbered bulls. The majority still thinks that the credit/housing crisis will be contained, that the economy will soften just a bit before recovering, and that earnings will show a double digit increase in 2008. Behind this belief is the confidence that the Fed can wave its magic wand and cure any problem. We strongly disagree for the following reasons.
The successive moves by the Treasury and the Fed to restore confidence look increasingly panicky and desperate as they attempt to deal with the first credit crisis of the derivatives era. We have now witnessed three cuts in the fed funds and discount rates, extensive open market operations, an attempt to shore up the SIVs and a plan to freeze subprime mortgage rate resets. The latest action is a coordinated plan (the term auction facility) to induce banks to lend more readily to one another and overcome the atmosphere of fear that has upset the world’s credit markets since August. While the latest plan may help liquidity a bit it doesn’t get to the heart of the problem—insolvency, debt deleveraging, asset writeoffs, the continuing lack of transparency and the ongoing decline of the housing market. In addition the forces for recession have already been set in motion and are not likely to be stopped at this late date.
The major problem that is belatedly panicking the various authorities is that about two million subprime adjustable-rate mortgages are due to be reset over the next two years with the average monthly increase in payments estimated at between $300 and $350 A large number of these mortgages are held by people who can’t afford to make the new higher payments. In the absence of any action they will default and be subject to foreclosure proceedings that will result in their houses being taken over by lenders for sale into an already saturated market. This would come on top of the current turmoil in the credit markets and the already softening economy.
Let’s not forget that the current problems with subprime mortgages were not caused by resets but by the fact that a large percentage of subprime mortgage holders can’t even afford the teaser rates. Foreclosures were already at a record high in the third quarter. Subprime adjustable rate mortgages showed a foreclosure rate of 4.7% while 18.8% were over 30 days late in payments. A large percentage of late-payment mortgages end up going into foreclosure. In addition the housing industry is in plenty of trouble before most of the resets are due to take place. Existing home sales are down 21% year-over-year and inventories amount to 10.8 months of supply. Prices are down 5.1% from a year ago and still declining. A study by Morgan Stanley, based on past regional home price declines, sees substantial risk that home prices will fall for the next three years or more ".given the tremendous overhang of subprime pressures, risk of recession, and the high cross-regional correlations."
Despite the action of the various authorities, the fact remains that financial institutions still don’t know what securities other institutions own, what they are worth and how much more will be written down. In too many instances they don’t even know what securities they themselves own or what they are worth. Furthermore with the housing situation still deteriorating the situation is likely to get even worse.
The situation will only get worse as more subprime-related securities are downgraded. A Wall Street Journal article indicates that in the year-to-date there have been 19,795 downgrades among securitized assets including multiple downgrades for the same bonds. Excluding double-counting, 11,817 securities worth $290 billion have been downgraded. Even more ominous, the ratings agencies indicate that there are thousands more securities, valued in hundreds of billions, under consideration for further downgrades.
The plight of the bond insurers threatens to add to the financial turmoil. S&P has slashed the rating of small bond insurer ACA Capital from triple-A to junk, stating that mortgage-related losses could exceed its $650 million capital cushion by more than $2 billion. ACA has provided guarantees on billions of dollars of securities including $26 billion of CDOs. Since in almost all of these cases the triple A ratings of the guaranteed securities depends on the guarantees, these securities are likely to be subject to writedowns as well, leading to a new wave of additional writedowns at banks and other institutions.
While ACA is relatively small, S&P also put two large bond insurers—MBIA and Ambac---on negative watch, meaning that it may downgrade their ratings in the near future, although it confirmed their triple A status for now. In addition MBIA, in a surprise move, indicated that it guarantees $8.1 billion of so-called CDOs-squared that have chances of losses. CDOs-squared repackage other CDOs and securities linked to subprime mortgages. If leading bond insurers were downgraded, some $2 trillion of insured securities would lose their triple A rating, leading to another surge of massive writedowns at financial institutions throughout the globe along with additional severe credit problems in the world financial system.
We suspect that the only reason that S&P didn’t downgrade these companies now was their fear of what it would do to the markets. We can’t say that we blame them for their reluctance, but that does not change the stark reality of the situation. This is yet another glaring example of the lack of transparency and the completely justified fear that we still don’t know of all the dangers that have still not been exposed to the light of day. Last month alone, even before these new developments were revealed, delinquencies on subprime loans contributed to downgrades on 2,007 CDOs. |
While some insist that the credit market and housing turmoil has not and will not spread to the economy, significant softening is already evident as is conceded by the Fed itself. In addition a number of prominent economists (although not a majority), even those associated with Wall Street, are now forecasting recession. The main argument of the economic bulls is that employment remains "strong." However, this assertion is not verified by the numbers that show the labor market is weakening significantly. According to the BLS, the increase in monthly payroll employment averaged 189,000 in 2006 and fell to 118,000 in the first 11 months of this year. In the last six months the increase dropped to only 94,000. Furthermore, the so-called birth/death adjustment accounted for 87% of the average monthly increase in the current year. Since these jobs are probably non-existent, the actual increase in employment this year is minuscule. The four-week average of initial unemployment claims excluding hurricane Katrina, is the highest since 2004 and has been moving up steadily. Similarly, continuing claims have been trending sharply higher.
The Conference Board leading indicators are down 0.8% from a year earlier, the largest drop since the third quarter of 2001. A decline of this magnitude has almost always led to recession. In housing, we continue to see severe declines in starts, permits, sales, prices and mortgage applications along with increased inventories, defaults and foreclosures. Real wages have declined 1.1% year-over-year at a time when the household savings rate has turned negative. Consumer spending has already slowed as is indicated by the reports of weak holiday sales, and will continue to be restricted in the period ahead by the weakening labor market, the drop in real wages, the non-existent savings rate, the dismal housing situation, the sharp decline in mortgage equity withdrawals, the ongoing credit crisis and high oil prices. Furthermore, core durable goods orders have dropped 2.6% in the last six months, indicating a coming weakening of capital expenditures.
The Western Europe and Japanese economies are slowing as well. Together, the U.S., the EU and Japan account for about 70% of world GDP with the developing nations accounting for the rest. Since the developing nations depend largely on exports for their growth, they are far from immune to the forces that are slowing down the global economy. This means that the so-called decoupling of the U.S. and global economies, so widely heralded until recently, will prove to be another mirage based on hope rather than reality.
In our view the stock market has not even come close to discounting the recession that is almost sure to come, if it has not already arrived. The consensus of private economists is still forecasting a 2008 GDP increase of 2.4%, a goal that is not likely to be met.. In the last eight recessions going back 50 years the S&P 500 has dropped by an average of 30%, and in seven of these instances the peak price-to-earnings ratio on trendline earnings was lower than it is today. Furthermore, don’t be fooled by sharp bear market rallies. The bear market of 2000 to 2002 was punctuated by five different rallies ranging from 10% to 25% while falling 50% (on the S&P 500) overall. As pointed out by Investors’ Business Daily, Nasdaq’s nine biggest up days of all time occurred during the last bear market. Although the current bear market is also likely to be punctuated by sharp rallies, we believe it has a long way to go on the downside as the developing economic news worsens.
One victim is Centro Properties Group, the fifth-largest owner of shopping centers in the U.S. The Australian real-estate company saw its share price fall by 90% in two days last week as it struggled to refinance short-term debt it took on to fund its $6.2 billion acquisition of New Plan Excel, one of the biggest owners of strip malls in the U.S.
Centro had planned to pay off the short-term loans by selling long-term debt via the commercial mortgage-backed securities market, but the lack of buyers forced it to get a two-month extension from its creditors. Commercial mortgage-backed securities, or CMBS, are pools of loans that are sliced up and sold to investors as bonds....
My Comment: The Asset backed commercial paper market is now dead. Centro is just another in the growing list of casualties.
In another high-profile case, the clock is ticking for Harry Macklowe, the New York developer, who is struggling to raise financing by February to replace $7.1 billion in short-term money he borrowed to finance his heavily leveraged acquisition of seven Manhattan office buildings this year.
My Comment: Harry Macklowe is likely to lose his his trophy property, the General Motors Building in midtown Manhattan that he put up as collateral.
Commercial real estate is in deep trouble and that should be crystal clear.
The CMBS market was the engine that drove the commercial real-estate boom. Over the past few years, the issuance of CMBS allowed banks to get rid of the risk on their books, lend with cheaper rates and looser terms and that made it easy for private-equity firms to do huge real-estate deals.
Between 2002 and 2007, CMBS issuance rose to an estimated $225 billion from $52 billion, according to Commercial Mortgage Alert, a trade publication that compiles its own statistics.
Real-estate investors aren't the only ones feeling the pain. Many big banks issued short-term loans to buyers and planned to sell them off later, much the way they do with loans made to private-equity buyout shops. But the banks have gotten stuck with an estimated $65 billion in fixed- and floating-rate loans on their books, according to J.P. Morgan. Some of the largest issuers have been Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc., Credit Suisse Group and Wachovia Corp.
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/
``The market can absorb all of these deals,'' said John Eydenberg, head of leveraged finance for the Americas at Deutsche Bank AG in New York. ``It is a question of time and price.''
While lenders reduced the overhang by 32 percent since July, they are struggling to unload debt from this year's record $438 billion of leveraged buyouts after losses fromsecurities linked to subprime mortgages reduced demand for higher-yielding assets, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. They sold some bonds at a discount of 10 percent to face value and loans at 5 percent below par, according to London-based Barclays Plc.
Bankers led by Goldman and Citigroup hold $17.5 billion of debt they couldn't sell from the purchase of Little Rock, Arkansas-based wireless carrier Alltel Corp. Lenders including Bank of America Corp., Deutsche Bank and JPMorgan committed to lend $22.3 billion next year for the purchase of Las Vegas-based casino company Harrah's Entertainment Inc., according to filings with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.
Banks including Citigroup, Deutsche Bank and Morgan Stanley will provide $22.1 billion for the acquisition of radio broadcaster Clear Channel Communications Inc. in San Antonio. Banks including Citigroup and Toronto-Dominion Bank are on the hook for $34.3 billion for Montreal-based telephone company BCE Inc., according to SEC filings. LBOs declined to $101.9 billion in the second half from $336.4 billion in the first six months as the subprime market collapsed.
The extra yield investors demand to own high-yield bonds, those rated below BBB- by Standard & Poor's and Baa3 by Moody's Investors Service, rather than Treasuries widened to 5.64 percentage points yesterday from a record low of 2.41 in June, Merrill Lynch data show.
Interest rates on loans rated B rose to 4.28 percentage points more than the three-month London interbank offered rate, a lending benchmark, from a low of 2.13 in February, according to S&P.....Banks have $161.9 billion of loans and $69.6 billion of bonds left to distribute, according to JPMorgan data.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/...20601087&sid=aAbmzSxv2pJs&refer=home
In a sign that they see tough times ahead, U.S. and European banks are considering sales of everything from branches to entire units. Possible sellers include Citigroup Inc., which may unload or shut several midsize units, and United Kingdom banking giant HSBC Holdings PLC, which could exit all or parts of its $13 billion auto-finance business, say people familiar with the situation.http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119879191007753637.html?
U.S. November new-home sales fall 9% to 647,000
Decline is more than expected, sales figure is the lowest since April 1995
By Robert Schroeder, MarketWatch
Last update: 10:07 a.m. EST Dec. 28, 2007
WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- Sales of new U.S. homes fell by a more-than-expected 9% in November to a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 647,000, the Commerce Department reported Friday. On average, economists surveyed by MarketWatch were expecting new-home sales to drop to a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 710,000 in November.
At the same time, October's sales rate was revised downward, the data show. Sales in October were revised to rise by 711,000, or 1.7%. They were previously estimated to have risen to a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 728,000.
The monthly report is very volatile, and the government says it can take up to five months to establish a new trend in sales. In the past year, sales of new U.S. homes are down 34.4% nationwide. Sales in the Midwest have been hit the hardest, falling 38.7% in the past 12 months.
Meanwhile, the median sales price rose to a four-month high in November, to $239,100. In the past year, however, that price is down 0.4%. By contrast, the average sales price dropped by 4.7% in November, to $293,300, a two-month low. The average sales price is up 0.5% in the past 12 months.
At the end of November, the estimate of new homes for sale was 505,000, a supply of 9.3 months at the current sales rate, the Commerce Department reported.
On Wednesday, a separate report showed that home prices in 20 major U.S. cities were down 6.1% on average in the past year as of October. Since October 2006, prices in 10 cities fell 6.7% -- a record drop. The prior largest decline was 6.3% in April 1991.
Macht Sinn, weil er damit seine Rendeite auf sein Kapital steigern kann. Vorausgesetzt, er kassiert saftige Prämien für die Bonds. Die kann er jetzt natürlich auch verlangen.
Die Erfahrungen aus 9/11 und Kathrina zeigen, dass Krisen im Nachhinein gut für liquide Versicherer sind, weil diese Krisen Prämienerhöhungen gestatten. Das weiß auch Buffett. Allerdings bezweifle ich, dass es sich langfristig um eine gute Entscheidung handelt. Sicherlich wird er viele Jahre damit gut fahren, aber eine Bond-Versicherung ist nun mal keine Autoversicherung und könnte ihm irgendwann mal das Genick brechen.
Jetzt könnte man drüber diskutieren, ob das mit Verzögerung noch starke Auswirkungen auf die Realwirtschaft haben wird, aber das diskutiert man ja jetzt seit über einem Jahr, und eigentlich wurde ja schon fürs 4.Quartal ne Rezession unterstellt. Sieht mir aber nicht danach aus.
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Chicago Einkaufsmanager-Index steigt überraschend
16:07 28.12.07
Chicago (aktiencheck.de AG) - Die Vereinigung der Chicagoer Einkaufsmanager ermittelte für Dezember 2007 einen unerwarteten Anstieg beim saisonbereinigten Konjunktur-Index.
So kletterte der Einkaufsmanager-Index auf 56,6 Punkte, nach 52,9 Punkten im Vormonat. Volkswirte hatten hingegen einen Rückgang auf 52,0 Punkte prognostiziert.
Ein Indexstand über 50 Punkten gilt als Signal für eine Verbesserung beim Verarbeitenden Gewerbe im Großraum Chicago. Ein Wert unter 50 Punkten signalisiert eine Abkühlung der Wirtschaftslage. (28.12.2007/ac/n/m)
Quelle: aktiencheck.de
So stieg der Index z.B. 1980/81 in Korrelation mit einem starken Anstieg der Realzinsen und dann weiter bis 1984 bei tendenziell fallenden Realzinsen, um schließlich bei noch weiter fallenden Realzinsen bis 1987 zu crashen.